Ok, I am a member of whatever group votes on investment in a new industry. If I approve the investment, the money can’t be used for my and my collectives wages. So what do I gain to offset the loss of wages? What makes me want to do the investment? Surely I can’t get a share of the profits, since those will belong to the workers in the new industry. I would be exploiting their work like a capitalist.
There are numerous ways, but the very fact that you believe it would be a simple matter of stealing gains proves you are historically and logically illiterate.
The fire department isn’t run by people stealing funds, nor is the post office, nor is the education system. Those work well.
Capitalism requires stealing from workers, meanwhile you are saying that Socialism is bad because stealing could happen. Do you not see the contradiction?
No, don’t change the topic to the same vague straw-man nonsense.
How are you socializing the investments and gains in a way that would allow investment into new industries? Or just how do you incentivise people to invest in general if they can’t collect dividends? Because that is the biggest issue capitalism solves, that communism can’t (not nearly as efficiently at least). The less than ~25% of output (GDP) capitalists get for directing investment and all the other management roles they serve is the inefficiency of capitalism.
PS: The reason capitalism is more efficient is not necessarily because less is “stolen”, but because the “stealing” part is done in a controlled manner similar to tax. Normal “stealing” (corruption) causes far more damage then just the amount stolen because it is not stolen from areas where it is least needed.
You seem to be assuming I said something entirely different, lol. You can do this investment via democratically elected planners and workers councils. There would be a government.
Capitalism is by far worse because the profit motive ensures the most exploitation occurs that is possible. Corruption can also be legislated against and accounted for, Capitalism’s exploitation cannot, it is the point!
Additionally, in Capitalism you have a class structure where a tiny minority control all of production and are entitled to most of its gains, and this class is unaccountable.
In capitalism, the “capitalist class” is accountable to the elected government. The profit motive is separated from the legislature (except when you legalize bribery like in the US, every good idea can be implemented badly).
If the same government has a profit interest in increasing output, then worker protection, safety, environment etc goes out the window far more drastically then in capitalism.
And if the government does not have a profit interest or a weak one, other interests are prioritized. You get Soviet style economy where nothing really gets done and the whole society is poorer. Or do you deny the fact that the “oppressed capitalist worker” is better of financially than the Soviet Union one was?
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Ok, I am a member of whatever group votes on investment in a new industry. If I approve the investment, the money can’t be used for my and my collectives wages. So what do I gain to offset the loss of wages? What makes me want to do the investment? Surely I can’t get a share of the profits, since those will belong to the workers in the new industry. I would be exploiting their work like a capitalist.
You socialize the investments and the gains.
How? Specifics. Or should I answer as vaguely as you: “I and my friends will steal your socialized gains for ourselves without anyone noticing”.
There are numerous ways, but the very fact that you believe it would be a simple matter of stealing gains proves you are historically and logically illiterate.
The fire department isn’t run by people stealing funds, nor is the post office, nor is the education system. Those work well.
Yeeees, there are magical ways to achieve that, but you will call me illiterate instead of giving a single example.
And if you think the post office or the education system works well, you are willfully blind.
Better than private schooling, haha.
Capitalism requires stealing from workers, meanwhile you are saying that Socialism is bad because stealing could happen. Do you not see the contradiction?
No, don’t change the topic to the same vague straw-man nonsense.
How are you socializing the investments and gains in a way that would allow investment into new industries? Or just how do you incentivise people to invest in general if they can’t collect dividends? Because that is the biggest issue capitalism solves, that communism can’t (not nearly as efficiently at least). The less than ~25% of output (GDP) capitalists get for directing investment and all the other management roles they serve is the inefficiency of capitalism.
PS: The reason capitalism is more efficient is not necessarily because less is “stolen”, but because the “stealing” part is done in a controlled manner similar to tax. Normal “stealing” (corruption) causes far more damage then just the amount stolen because it is not stolen from areas where it is least needed.
You seem to be assuming I said something entirely different, lol. You can do this investment via democratically elected planners and workers councils. There would be a government.
Capitalism is by far worse because the profit motive ensures the most exploitation occurs that is possible. Corruption can also be legislated against and accounted for, Capitalism’s exploitation cannot, it is the point!
Additionally, in Capitalism you have a class structure where a tiny minority control all of production and are entitled to most of its gains, and this class is unaccountable.
In capitalism, the “capitalist class” is accountable to the elected government. The profit motive is separated from the legislature (except when you legalize bribery like in the US, every good idea can be implemented badly).
If the same government has a profit interest in increasing output, then worker protection, safety, environment etc goes out the window far more drastically then in capitalism.
And if the government does not have a profit interest or a weak one, other interests are prioritized. You get Soviet style economy where nothing really gets done and the whole society is poorer. Or do you deny the fact that the “oppressed capitalist worker” is better of financially than the Soviet Union one was?