Share ownership of what? If you mean just the factory they work in or a small group, then you get most of the same issues you denounce in capitalism. Some factories will inevitably become rich and prosperous, some will go bankrupt. There will still be wealth inequality. You will also get various new issues such us how do you found new factories and industries without re-inventing capitalism or at least having the same consolidation issues.
If you are talking about all the capital in the nation/world, then the gains you can obtain from improving your own productivity is insignificant, evaporating the motivation. It is much easier to slack off and leach of others.
Share ownership of the Means of Production collectively at scale.
Additionally, even if we follow your strawman of there being wealth inequality from different worker cooperatives, these are not “the same issues as Capitalism.” You eliminate exploitation with worker cooperatives, there isn’t a Capitalist stealing surplus labor value.
You create new industries and new factories via collectively directed investment. You can do this through the government, or workers councils.
No, it is not much easier to slack off systemically.
Ok, I am a member of whatever group votes on investment in a new industry. If I approve the investment, the money can’t be used for my and my collectives wages. So what do I gain to offset the loss of wages? What makes me want to do the investment? Surely I can’t get a share of the profits, since those will belong to the workers in the new industry. I would be exploiting their work like a capitalist.
There are numerous ways, but the very fact that you believe it would be a simple matter of stealing gains proves you are historically and logically illiterate.
The fire department isn’t run by people stealing funds, nor is the post office, nor is the education system. Those work well.
Capitalism requires stealing from workers, meanwhile you are saying that Socialism is bad because stealing could happen. Do you not see the contradiction?
No, don’t change the topic to the same vague straw-man nonsense.
How are you socializing the investments and gains in a way that would allow investment into new industries? Or just how do you incentivise people to invest in general if they can’t collect dividends? Because that is the biggest issue capitalism solves, that communism can’t (not nearly as efficiently at least). The less than ~25% of output (GDP) capitalists get for directing investment and all the other management roles they serve is the inefficiency of capitalism.
PS: The reason capitalism is more efficient is not necessarily because less is “stolen”, but because the “stealing” part is done in a controlled manner similar to tax. Normal “stealing” (corruption) causes far more damage then just the amount stolen because it is not stolen from areas where it is least needed.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !aboringdystopia@lemmy.world
Pictures, Videos, Articles showing just how boring it is to live in a dystopic society, or with signs of a dystopic society.
Rules (Subject to Change)
–Be a Decent Human Being
–Posting news articles: include the source name and exact title from article in your post title
Share ownership of what? If you mean just the factory they work in or a small group, then you get most of the same issues you denounce in capitalism. Some factories will inevitably become rich and prosperous, some will go bankrupt. There will still be wealth inequality. You will also get various new issues such us how do you found new factories and industries without re-inventing capitalism or at least having the same consolidation issues.
If you are talking about all the capital in the nation/world, then the gains you can obtain from improving your own productivity is insignificant, evaporating the motivation. It is much easier to slack off and leach of others.
Share ownership of the Means of Production collectively at scale.
Additionally, even if we follow your strawman of there being wealth inequality from different worker cooperatives, these are not “the same issues as Capitalism.” You eliminate exploitation with worker cooperatives, there isn’t a Capitalist stealing surplus labor value.
You create new industries and new factories via collectively directed investment. You can do this through the government, or workers councils.
No, it is not much easier to slack off systemically.
You can only argue off of vibes, I suppose.
Ok, I am a member of whatever group votes on investment in a new industry. If I approve the investment, the money can’t be used for my and my collectives wages. So what do I gain to offset the loss of wages? What makes me want to do the investment? Surely I can’t get a share of the profits, since those will belong to the workers in the new industry. I would be exploiting their work like a capitalist.
You socialize the investments and the gains.
How? Specifics. Or should I answer as vaguely as you: “I and my friends will steal your socialized gains for ourselves without anyone noticing”.
There are numerous ways, but the very fact that you believe it would be a simple matter of stealing gains proves you are historically and logically illiterate.
The fire department isn’t run by people stealing funds, nor is the post office, nor is the education system. Those work well.
Yeeees, there are magical ways to achieve that, but you will call me illiterate instead of giving a single example.
And if you think the post office or the education system works well, you are willfully blind.
Better than private schooling, haha.
Capitalism requires stealing from workers, meanwhile you are saying that Socialism is bad because stealing could happen. Do you not see the contradiction?
No, don’t change the topic to the same vague straw-man nonsense.
How are you socializing the investments and gains in a way that would allow investment into new industries? Or just how do you incentivise people to invest in general if they can’t collect dividends? Because that is the biggest issue capitalism solves, that communism can’t (not nearly as efficiently at least). The less than ~25% of output (GDP) capitalists get for directing investment and all the other management roles they serve is the inefficiency of capitalism.
PS: The reason capitalism is more efficient is not necessarily because less is “stolen”, but because the “stealing” part is done in a controlled manner similar to tax. Normal “stealing” (corruption) causes far more damage then just the amount stolen because it is not stolen from areas where it is least needed.