There was a time when the family washing machine would last decades, with each breakdown fixed by the friendly local repair person. But those days are long gone.
Too many products are easier to throw away than fix—consumers deserve a ‘right to repair’::There was a time when the family washing machine would last decades, with each breakdown fixed by the friendly local repair person. But those days are long gone.
I’m all about right to repair. But why is it so hard to find places to dispose of e waste clearly labeled do not throw away in trash? We can’t even trash correctly.
Is there no recycling center around were you live? In germany basically every city has a “Wertstoffhof” that takes everything from old clothes over smaller e-waste (including batteries, etc), larger stuff like fridges to all kinds of reusable / recycleable plastics and metals. Basically everything that can be recycled or reused in some way and is not meant for the normal recycling household trash.
Repairing is an infinitely more complex task than manufacturing - in this way any government with sufficient wisdom could ensure (pretty interesting and fulfilling) jobs for its citizens despite the march of automation.
In essence, not creating new value from skilled manufacture, but focusing on restoration and enhancememt of value though even more skilled repair and modification.
Exactly, the reason we don’t repair things is two fold.
The reason everyone here is talking about: the products aren’t designed for it.
The reason the products aren’t designed for it: we can’t afford it.
To dig deeper into #2, yes sometimes things are made harder to repair for the sake of thinness or some technological reason, but a main issue is that we cannot afford our own labour. Our wages have not kept up over the last half century and we can no longer afford to hire our neighbors in our local communities for their skills.
Because we have been outsourcing manufacturing for so long we feel like we have money, becYse we can buy a TV for every room. But if that TV was made in NA and not Asia? It would be a $2000 TV, not $400. It’s cheaper to buy new because we cannot afford man hours to repair.
The consumer economy we have is built for waste and exploitation. While I 100% support right to repair and it’s a step in the right direction, I feel most people will still buy new.
You know there are guys living from repairs, right? They are repairing products that were built on purpose not to be repaired while the manufacturers are actively and intentionally hampering the access to information and parts.
Yes I am aware of that and I addressed in my second comment. They are a relatively niche industry compared to consumption. I would love to see them expand.
This is the whole point: they cannot expand. While there will always be cheap enough products that don’t make economic sense to repair there will always be goods that can be repaired. The limit is set by a complex economic equilibrium and is always moving but first you have to create that possibility.
Right now there is only limited repair possibility not because it’s not feasible economically or there are no providers or customers for the service but because there is an active struggle from the manufacturers to stop this activity for increased sales and profits.
I don’t know, your #2 reason doesn’t seem to stand up to reality.
I don’t know where you are, but where I am (UK) you can go on any high street (in most towns there will be an area where most shops are, think strip mall in the US) and you will find at least a couple shops that fix and sell electronics - primarily smartphones, but also vacuum cleaners, TVs, computers, games consoles.
Pretty much all of them are locally-run and are, I assume, profitable in spite of every electronics manufacturer trying to run them out of business.
I say I assume because they wouldn’t be everywhere if they weren’t.
I’ve had phones fixed by them, they offer warranties, reasonable prices, only had an issue once and it was put right after a tiny bit of back and forth.
I think by “we can’t afford it” you mean “capitalism hasn’t yet found a way to centralise the profits and run the small business owners out of business”.
I think saying it doesn’t stand up to reality is a bit harsh. I’m not claiming nothing is worth repairing, just that it’s cost prohibitive in the majority of cases.
To take your cellphone repair store as an example, I bet they do the majority of their work on iPhones and higher end Samsungs because the upfront cost of those phones are so high. People aren’t going to pay repair costs for a cheaper $300 Motorola.
Similarly there are vacuum and appliance repair shops as well, and when your Meile or Bosch breaks then they do their magic, but compared to most people going to Walmart and buying a replacement? I’d say estimate the number of repairs are low.
So yes, without any numbers, I feel pretty confident making the claim that the overwhelming majority of things are not repaired and I don’t see this legislation changing that. Like I said before, it’s still an improvement I support.
I don’t know how it is in other areas of technology but in the automotive electronics world, a big barrier to re-use and repair is mostly poor record keeping. When an OEM makes a car, they buy subsystems from suppliers such as Bosch, Continental and Valeo. These mechatronic assemblies contain software that is often completely opaque to the OEM, never mind the end user. Even if you did want to repair the sensor or whatever has gone wrong, you wouldn’t be able to access the diagnostic interface without specialist tools and documentation. This barrier is deliberately and cynically inserted by witholding the information. Our machines are not made to be repaired because it is less profitable and profit decides every decision in capitalism.
If you aim for a lower margin and a longer product lifecycle, you’ll make more in the long run. For example, creating a system designed for compatibility, easy upgrading, and repair would reduce production costs and shift profit from repairs to incremental upgrades (e.g. pc building).
The first thing to go on a washing machine is usually the bearings. Most washing machines now have their bearings attached to the drum, so to replace the bearing, the whole drum has to be replaced. Replacing the drum is near the entire cost of a new washing machine and you will likely have to pay for 0.5 to .75 days worth of labour to have the old drum replaced too.
Yeah fuck these shinty designs to force consumers into buying and dumping otherwise easily repairable and reusable machines.
Even when it is replaceable, it’s ridiculous. I accidentally pulled off the front bumper of my Prius by scraping it on a parking barrier and it cost me $800 because they had to replace a huge amount of the front of the car. The dealer wouldn’t even touch it. They said it had to go to a body shop. It’s the fucking bumper!
Definitely want to see cars (and other larger purchases) more able to be repaired in future. However, especially in cases of an accident there’s other factors.
Part of it as already mentioned is a safety thing. Crumple zones and the like are there to purposefully deform so that the people inside the vehicle have a higher chance of surviving a crash.
Part of it is that being hit in the wrong way can also weaken the structural integrity of the frame making it unsafe to use. Makes more sense to strip it for parts at that point. Last thing a repair or insurance company wants is to be found liable for saying “yes the car is repairable/safe to drive”, then the front falls of on a highway.
Part of it also is that insurance companies won’t want to pay for repairs that amount to more than the cost of replacing the entire car if it’s older. Or they know they can make more money by paying out a policy then repairing and refurbishing the vehicle.
To be fair, cars are designed to break in a car crash for safety. If it breaks it can absorb the impact a lot better and therefore make the crash more survivable.
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Phones should also have unlockable booloaders by default to flash your own updates when your manufacturer stops supporting it.
I understand security risks and all, but it really should be an option for people who buy their devices.
For me that’s the most egregious case of not letting users actually own their hardware. Samsung is notorious with this on their US Snapdragon phones.
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I’m all about right to repair. But why is it so hard to find places to dispose of e waste clearly labeled do not throw away in trash? We can’t even trash correctly.
Is there no recycling center around were you live? In germany basically every city has a “Wertstoffhof” that takes everything from old clothes over smaller e-waste (including batteries, etc), larger stuff like fridges to all kinds of reusable / recycleable plastics and metals. Basically everything that can be recycled or reused in some way and is not meant for the normal recycling household trash.
removed by mod
deleted by creator
Repairing is an infinitely more complex task than manufacturing - in this way any government with sufficient wisdom could ensure (pretty interesting and fulfilling) jobs for its citizens despite the march of automation.
In essence, not creating new value from skilled manufacture, but focusing on restoration and enhancememt of value though even more skilled repair and modification.
Exactly, the reason we don’t repair things is two fold.
To dig deeper into #2, yes sometimes things are made harder to repair for the sake of thinness or some technological reason, but a main issue is that we cannot afford our own labour. Our wages have not kept up over the last half century and we can no longer afford to hire our neighbors in our local communities for their skills.
Because we have been outsourcing manufacturing for so long we feel like we have money, becYse we can buy a TV for every room. But if that TV was made in NA and not Asia? It would be a $2000 TV, not $400. It’s cheaper to buy new because we cannot afford man hours to repair.
The consumer economy we have is built for waste and exploitation. While I 100% support right to repair and it’s a step in the right direction, I feel most people will still buy new.
You know there are guys living from repairs, right? They are repairing products that were built on purpose not to be repaired while the manufacturers are actively and intentionally hampering the access to information and parts.
Yes I am aware of that and I addressed in my second comment. They are a relatively niche industry compared to consumption. I would love to see them expand.
This is the whole point: they cannot expand. While there will always be cheap enough products that don’t make economic sense to repair there will always be goods that can be repaired. The limit is set by a complex economic equilibrium and is always moving but first you have to create that possibility.
Right now there is only limited repair possibility not because it’s not feasible economically or there are no providers or customers for the service but because there is an active struggle from the manufacturers to stop this activity for increased sales and profits.
I don’t know, your #2 reason doesn’t seem to stand up to reality.
I don’t know where you are, but where I am (UK) you can go on any high street (in most towns there will be an area where most shops are, think strip mall in the US) and you will find at least a couple shops that fix and sell electronics - primarily smartphones, but also vacuum cleaners, TVs, computers, games consoles.
Pretty much all of them are locally-run and are, I assume, profitable in spite of every electronics manufacturer trying to run them out of business.
I say I assume because they wouldn’t be everywhere if they weren’t.
I’ve had phones fixed by them, they offer warranties, reasonable prices, only had an issue once and it was put right after a tiny bit of back and forth.
I think by “we can’t afford it” you mean “capitalism hasn’t yet found a way to centralise the profits and run the small business owners out of business”.
I think saying it doesn’t stand up to reality is a bit harsh. I’m not claiming nothing is worth repairing, just that it’s cost prohibitive in the majority of cases.
To take your cellphone repair store as an example, I bet they do the majority of their work on iPhones and higher end Samsungs because the upfront cost of those phones are so high. People aren’t going to pay repair costs for a cheaper $300 Motorola.
Similarly there are vacuum and appliance repair shops as well, and when your Meile or Bosch breaks then they do their magic, but compared to most people going to Walmart and buying a replacement? I’d say estimate the number of repairs are low.
So yes, without any numbers, I feel pretty confident making the claim that the overwhelming majority of things are not repaired and I don’t see this legislation changing that. Like I said before, it’s still an improvement I support.
I don’t know how it is in other areas of technology but in the automotive electronics world, a big barrier to re-use and repair is mostly poor record keeping. When an OEM makes a car, they buy subsystems from suppliers such as Bosch, Continental and Valeo. These mechatronic assemblies contain software that is often completely opaque to the OEM, never mind the end user. Even if you did want to repair the sensor or whatever has gone wrong, you wouldn’t be able to access the diagnostic interface without specialist tools and documentation. This barrier is deliberately and cynically inserted by witholding the information. Our machines are not made to be repaired because it is less profitable and profit decides every decision in capitalism.
I agree - though it’s a short sighted vision.
If you aim for a lower margin and a longer product lifecycle, you’ll make more in the long run. For example, creating a system designed for compatibility, easy upgrading, and repair would reduce production costs and shift profit from repairs to incremental upgrades (e.g. pc building).
retard
Literally costs more to buy secondhand than buy brand new.
I have to fight every time to repair or buy used because I can go to shops and get the product cheaper.
Most second hand comes with shipping on top as well.
It’s infuriating.
There is already enough stuff in existence. Stop cutting down trees to make more wooden products. We have them. They just go to dump instead.
The first thing to go on a washing machine is usually the bearings. Most washing machines now have their bearings attached to the drum, so to replace the bearing, the whole drum has to be replaced. Replacing the drum is near the entire cost of a new washing machine and you will likely have to pay for 0.5 to .75 days worth of labour to have the old drum replaced too.
Yeah fuck these shinty designs to force consumers into buying and dumping otherwise easily repairable and reusable machines.
I cannot believe a law like this has to exist. It’s telling just how out of control and unchecked capitalism is.
You know what needs to be added to this? Cars. The amount of body damage needed to “total” most cars is almost trivial these days.
Even when it is replaceable, it’s ridiculous. I accidentally pulled off the front bumper of my Prius by scraping it on a parking barrier and it cost me $800 because they had to replace a huge amount of the front of the car. The dealer wouldn’t even touch it. They said it had to go to a body shop. It’s the fucking bumper!
Definitely want to see cars (and other larger purchases) more able to be repaired in future. However, especially in cases of an accident there’s other factors.
Part of it as already mentioned is a safety thing. Crumple zones and the like are there to purposefully deform so that the people inside the vehicle have a higher chance of surviving a crash.
Part of it is that being hit in the wrong way can also weaken the structural integrity of the frame making it unsafe to use. Makes more sense to strip it for parts at that point. Last thing a repair or insurance company wants is to be found liable for saying “yes the car is repairable/safe to drive”, then the front falls of on a highway.
Part of it also is that insurance companies won’t want to pay for repairs that amount to more than the cost of replacing the entire car if it’s older. Or they know they can make more money by paying out a policy then repairing and refurbishing the vehicle.
To be fair, cars are designed to break in a car crash for safety. If it breaks it can absorb the impact a lot better and therefore make the crash more survivable.
Cars are themselves a symptom of a broken system designed to maximize waste. It’s wrong that the majority of people even need one to begin with.
The thing is that OEMs have no incentive to jack up the prices of parts.