iSeeCars used NHTSA's list of recalls from 2014-2023 to learn which of today's cars are expected to have the most recalls over an expected 30-year lifespan.
I am still waiting for a day of no frills EVs or just more no frills cars in general. Less crap in the way to repair and whatnot. But all I see passing car lots are bigger vehicles that look like they have so much stuff in them.
We need like a Kirkland brand EV. Unless I am an idiot and people don’t want stuff like that.
I bought my first ev 8 months ago. 13k miles already and no maintenance cost yet. Absolutely love it and find any excuses to drive it.
I drove a gas guzzling 350hp coupe before jumping to a EV. I had my doubts but I’m glad I made the switch. It’ll be awhile until we get a Costco like vehicle (my bet is Toyota or Hyundai will come out with something huge).
My commute is 70 miles a day and it’s a blast. I drive it on weekends just because it’s fun. I don’t have any frills on it, just a screen I look at once in a while.5
They really should disaggregate recalls fixed with OTA updates from recalls that need a physical intervention.
Obviously Teslas almost always need an OTA update
No they shouldn’t. since not every OTA update gets a recall. Only safety related issues cause recalls. What OTA recall means is software or algorhitm related to the drive train, driving or related systems had a safety related issue.
It is normal, that now that there is more software control, there is more software related recalls. The point isn’t to track how many times the car went to shop to be worked on. The point is to track how many times and how severe safety related issues there is. Just because the solution was simple to end user OTA update doesn’t mean the underlying safety issue wasn’t severe.
Before you had to go to garage to fix sticking accelerator cable. Now you have to update the power delivery mapping algorhitm, since it had a bug qnd didn’t properly cut the torque from the motor on accelerator lift. Both are uncommanded acceleration application issues. Equally severe and very serious safety issues. One just needs physical work, other software fixing.
That they have to update the software so often regarding safety says to me their safety verification procedure isn’t robust.
Also not like Tesla is the only one. Others also have had to update their software for bugs or ill behavior. Just not as often. I would hazard due to more conservative software updating.
Bunch of the recalls for Tesla have been caused by them updating software, introducing a bug and then having to pretty soon after safety recall for the update fixing that bug. If they had scrutineered the software more closely, they would have avoided the safety recall. Since the deployed software would be bug free on the first deployment.
Remember on modern EV, single bug in control software can send front and rear tires spinning in opposite directions. On 4 motor torque vectoring the software can send the car into uncontrolled tank spin with one side pulling forward and other backward.
The simple truth is the driveline control software is safety critical component of modern car and thus should absolutely earn safety notices on having problems. Mind you recall is archaic name for safety notice, but that is the name in legislations and use. On many other fields also there is archaic legacy terms in use and people learn to deal with it.
No, they are cheap because Tesla built extremely efficient factories, assembly lines and car designs from the start. Try to look up the differences between Tesla and other manufacturers like VW, Toyota etc…
efficiency is when you have to recall your cars the most out of anybody because it’s more efficient to get them out the door and in to the suckers customers hands and then fix them later
I don’t know if it’s maybe a judicial thing or something or if they are technically required to do an official recall registered in some system, even if they can actually solve it OTA.
I would suspect the rules around required recalls are not really updated to reflect the extended amount of issues that a vertical system integrator like Tesla can solve OTA.
Recall, an official recall, is a safety issue notice really. Its a legally defined thing in motor vehicle code. If manufacturer finds a defect, issue or feature affecting driving safety they have to notify safety authorities and get a recall issued. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with, whether the product goes back to service garage or not.
Important point: Not every Tesla OTA update triggers a NHTSA (or other national road safety agency) official recall. Tesla has updated their cars plenty without recall notice. Only safety related issues get recall issued along with the OTA update.
Thus it is meaningfully, that they have so many software related (and thus OTA fixed) safety recalls. Each of those times is Hey, NHTSA, gonna have to admit, our software has a safety oopsie on it. Here is the paperwork, could you please issue us the official recall campaign number. Yeah software team already developed fix for it, it’s all in the paperwork. We issue recall notice for drivers to check for the OTA to have gone through properly, that is all they need to do.
No maker wants to have safety recalls. It’s bad PR. Makers have been fined plenty times for failing to properly inform agencies. One of the most famous is the Takata airbags. Where Takata got fined millions by first knowing and not telling their airbags had extra spicy unstable propellant exploding way too violently. Plus after firstly admitting to it lying to for example NHTSA about the vast extend of the problem.
So it matters, that even on “just a software issue” recalls are issued. The main point is public is properly informed. Lot of time it’s resolved without great calamity. However this was exactly the lesson learned. Don’t let makers hide issued, make them admit immediately so public knows and can take appropriate mitigation, before someone gets hurt. Also makes makers fix things quickly. Otherwise other priorities might override, since What they don’t know can’t hurt our reputation, like this is marginal issue. We can take little more time with this. Oh it takes 6 months to design fix with that small team. No worries. After all, no one knows. We have time. Except during that slow roll someone bumps into that “marginal issue” and gets hurt. Having to publicly admit immediately puts fire under their hind quarters. “Whole design department, stop what you are doing. We have safety recall issue. It went just public. Everyday company sits without being able to say No worries, we have solution we take flack. This is now priority number 1. This must be resolved yesterday, says the company board. Whatever parts or equipment you need, order it. Whomever you need to call, call them.”
It’s also worth, I think, pointing out that, for example, Lincoln has the 6th (I think) most recalled model as well as (again, I think) the second to least recalled model. So it shows that, in a lot of cases, it really depends on the model of the car rather than the manufacturer.
Except Tesla. 100% of Teslas current lineup is in the top 5.
The cars literally changed the way they evaluate safety when the model s was released when i read about them in car and driver magazine many moons ago
Im writing this only in response to your edit. Because it was getting unearable on reddit any time someone mentioning they own a tesla and enjoy it, the people who hate elon come brigade and just shit all over someone because they bought a car they liked and admited they own one.
Can we just please remember that everything isnt always connected the way you assume it is. Give people the benefit of the doubt, and only call out what is stated and not just tangentially connected?
Ive been enjoying lemmy so far, and i have hope it will not become the cesspool other spaces have, but it wont happen if we cant agree to disagree and let other people be without accusing them of everything you fear or just hate without them indicating they are what you fear or hate.
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I am still waiting for a day of no frills EVs or just more no frills cars in general. Less crap in the way to repair and whatnot. But all I see passing car lots are bigger vehicles that look like they have so much stuff in them.
We need like a Kirkland brand EV. Unless I am an idiot and people don’t want stuff like that.
I bought my first ev 8 months ago. 13k miles already and no maintenance cost yet. Absolutely love it and find any excuses to drive it.
I drove a gas guzzling 350hp coupe before jumping to a EV. I had my doubts but I’m glad I made the switch. It’ll be awhile until we get a Costco like vehicle (my bet is Toyota or Hyundai will come out with something huge).
My commute is 70 miles a day and it’s a blast. I drive it on weekends just because it’s fun. I don’t have any frills on it, just a screen I look at once in a while.5
What kind of EV?
Tesla model 3 performance. I know it gets shit on a lot for some reason but using it as a daily driver, it’s the best car I ever had.
M3 here, the autopilot features are incredible, highway driving just fades away.
Definitely worth it, can barely drive my suv now.
Toyotas EV is like that. ID4 is fairly basic. Chevy Bolt.
The Bolt EV or the Leaf are just that.
Sadly I had to wait 10 months, my dealer got a single SV Plus for me
Tesla build quality is horrible.
They really should disaggregate recalls fixed with OTA updates from recalls that need a physical intervention. Obviously Teslas almost always need an OTA update
No they shouldn’t. since not every OTA update gets a recall. Only safety related issues cause recalls. What OTA recall means is software or algorhitm related to the drive train, driving or related systems had a safety related issue.
It is normal, that now that there is more software control, there is more software related recalls. The point isn’t to track how many times the car went to shop to be worked on. The point is to track how many times and how severe safety related issues there is. Just because the solution was simple to end user OTA update doesn’t mean the underlying safety issue wasn’t severe.
Before you had to go to garage to fix sticking accelerator cable. Now you have to update the power delivery mapping algorhitm, since it had a bug qnd didn’t properly cut the torque from the motor on accelerator lift. Both are uncommanded acceleration application issues. Equally severe and very serious safety issues. One just needs physical work, other software fixing.
That they have to update the software so often regarding safety says to me their safety verification procedure isn’t robust.
Also not like Tesla is the only one. Others also have had to update their software for bugs or ill behavior. Just not as often. I would hazard due to more conservative software updating.
Bunch of the recalls for Tesla have been caused by them updating software, introducing a bug and then having to pretty soon after safety recall for the update fixing that bug. If they had scrutineered the software more closely, they would have avoided the safety recall. Since the deployed software would be bug free on the first deployment.
Remember on modern EV, single bug in control software can send front and rear tires spinning in opposite directions. On 4 motor torque vectoring the software can send the car into uncontrolled tank spin with one side pulling forward and other backward.
The simple truth is the driveline control software is safety critical component of modern car and thus should absolutely earn safety notices on having problems. Mind you recall is archaic name for safety notice, but that is the name in legislations and use. On many other fields also there is archaic legacy terms in use and people learn to deal with it.
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That’s why Teslas are so cheap…right?
No, they are cheap because Tesla built extremely efficient factories, assembly lines and car designs from the start. Try to look up the differences between Tesla and other manufacturers like VW, Toyota etc…
efficiency is when you have to recall your cars the most out of anybody because it’s more efficient to get them out the door and in to the
suckerscustomers hands and then fix them laterI was joking, they aren’t cheap, they’re average priced for a subpar car. The Ford Maverick is $25,000, a whopping $10,000 cheaper than the Model 3.
Edit: I’m stupid, I thought the Ford Maverick was the EV model. It’s in fact the Ford Lightning, which starts at $50,000. Teslas are in fact cheap.
Why are you comparing a compact Tesla to Ford trucks? Teslas are definitely expensive. And the model 3 isn’t $35k, it’s more like $50k.
Are you comparing the price of an EV to a gas powered car? Thats a pretty unrealistic comparison.
I dont disagree its a subpar car in terms of quality, but for an EV its a really good price.
Lack of quality control
Cheap paint work
Cheap plastics panels all over the car
Underpaid workers
Etc
Keeps the price down
They shouldn’t, because a LOT of those software updates were safety related.
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No, they are for some reasons called recalls. Didn’t Tesla recall their entire fleet this spring? It was solved by OTA updates.
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I don’t know if it’s maybe a judicial thing or something or if they are technically required to do an official recall registered in some system, even if they can actually solve it OTA.
I would suspect the rules around required recalls are not really updated to reflect the extended amount of issues that a vertical system integrator like Tesla can solve OTA.
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I don’t have any agenda, I just tried answering your question.
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Recall, an official recall, is a safety issue notice really. Its a legally defined thing in motor vehicle code. If manufacturer finds a defect, issue or feature affecting driving safety they have to notify safety authorities and get a recall issued. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with, whether the product goes back to service garage or not.
Important point: Not every Tesla OTA update triggers a NHTSA (or other national road safety agency) official recall. Tesla has updated their cars plenty without recall notice. Only safety related issues get recall issued along with the OTA update.
Thus it is meaningfully, that they have so many software related (and thus OTA fixed) safety recalls. Each of those times is Hey, NHTSA, gonna have to admit, our software has a safety oopsie on it. Here is the paperwork, could you please issue us the official recall campaign number. Yeah software team already developed fix for it, it’s all in the paperwork. We issue recall notice for drivers to check for the OTA to have gone through properly, that is all they need to do.
No maker wants to have safety recalls. It’s bad PR. Makers have been fined plenty times for failing to properly inform agencies. One of the most famous is the Takata airbags. Where Takata got fined millions by first knowing and not telling their airbags had extra spicy unstable propellant exploding way too violently. Plus after firstly admitting to it lying to for example NHTSA about the vast extend of the problem.
So it matters, that even on “just a software issue” recalls are issued. The main point is public is properly informed. Lot of time it’s resolved without great calamity. However this was exactly the lesson learned. Don’t let makers hide issued, make them admit immediately so public knows and can take appropriate mitigation, before someone gets hurt. Also makes makers fix things quickly. Otherwise other priorities might override, since What they don’t know can’t hurt our reputation, like this is marginal issue. We can take little more time with this. Oh it takes 6 months to design fix with that small team. No worries. After all, no one knows. We have time. Except during that slow roll someone bumps into that “marginal issue” and gets hurt. Having to publicly admit immediately puts fire under their hind quarters. “Whole design department, stop what you are doing. We have safety recall issue. It went just public. Everyday company sits without being able to say No worries, we have solution we take flack. This is now priority number 1. This must be resolved yesterday, says the company board. Whatever parts or equipment you need, order it. Whomever you need to call, call them.”
It’s also worth, I think, pointing out that, for example, Lincoln has the 6th (I think) most recalled model as well as (again, I think) the second to least recalled model. So it shows that, in a lot of cases, it really depends on the model of the car rather than the manufacturer.
Except Tesla. 100% of Teslas current lineup is in the top 5.
Teslas are poorly assembled
Mostly assembled. Teslas are mostly assembled. 😆
It’s like deconstructed food when they bring you a plate with all the ingredients on it.
“Uh, waiter. My bolognese tried veering into oncoming traffic.”
It’s mostly digital recalls solved by software updates over the air.
Toyota the least?!?!
Recall for a Tesla: send an ota update and the user doesn’t even notice it
Recall for other brands: send a snail mail letter asking to give the car to a dealer for an unspecified amount of time in order to do a replacement
toyota.
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Intended to be a friendly reminder
Tesla owner ≠ muskonite
The cars literally changed the way they evaluate safety when the model s was released when i read about them in car and driver magazine many moons ago
Im writing this only in response to your edit. Because it was getting unearable on reddit any time someone mentioning they own a tesla and enjoy it, the people who hate elon come brigade and just shit all over someone because they bought a car they liked and admited they own one.
Can we just please remember that everything isnt always connected the way you assume it is. Give people the benefit of the doubt, and only call out what is stated and not just tangentially connected?
Ive been enjoying lemmy so far, and i have hope it will not become the cesspool other spaces have, but it wont happen if we cant agree to disagree and let other people be without accusing them of everything you fear or just hate without them indicating they are what you fear or hate.
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Lol, i dont own a tesla.
But this is exactly the kind of toxicity i was trying to highlight. So thank you
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You sound very sane and healthy to be around