A YouTuber took Tesla’s Cybertruck on a ride to see if it can actually hit its advertised 320-mile range, only to find out that its could only reach 79% of the target. When YouTuber Kyle Conn…
Tesla Cybertruck gets less than 80% of advertised range in YouTuber’s test::A YouTuber took Tesla’s Cybertruck on a ride to see if it can actually hit its advertised 320-mile range, only to find out that its could only reach 79% of the target. When YouTuber Kyle Conn…
The EPA highway test is 55mph or something around that. These real world tests are all 70mph+
The only way you do better or equal on a 70mph test is
Advertise a smaller range than you actually have
Gear the motor for high speed and have worse performance at lower speeds (EVs typically do better at low vs high, but you could make low even worse)
Have a multi gear motor like Porsche and I think some Audi. Then you don’t have to optimize the motor on 1 gear, but it substantially increases cost (but it’s a porsche) and complexity and repair costs.
The EPA just needs to make a 70mph test part of the test cycle and make them advertise that.
The gearing in the Taycan/E-Tron GT aren’t for efficiency, but for speed. Electric motors don’t really lose efficiency as they spin faster, but they do start to lose the ability to move the car faster against the exponentially increasing wind resistance. This isn’t an issue for most cars (they top out around 110mph), but for something like the Taycan it’s important (tops out around 155mph).
The 70mph situation is more that manufacturers de-rate their cars. Both the Taycan and the Lyriq (a SUV brick) are well-known for demolishing their EPA ranges in 70mph cruising tests. Even the EV9 (the brickiest brick) exceeded the EPA range in this same test.
Unrelated to my other reply - but I think it’d be interesting to see how much other manufactuers de-rate their cars, by having independent testers also run an EPA test just like they run real world tests.
I’d love to see them run reports saying XYZ car has an actual epa range of XYZ even though they report ABC
Most electric motors are designed to run at 50% to 100% of rated load. Maximum efficiency is usually near 75% of rated load. Thus, a 10 horsepower (hp) motor has an acceptable load range of 5 to 10 hp; peak efficiency is at 7.5 hp.
They also run more poorly below 50%.
To get a good city/highway range they would need to try and keep the motor above 50% for city, while also keeping it under around 75% for highway. How you move that gearing will impact range at higher speeds or lower speeds. Maybe it’s not as much as I think, but it definitely comes into play, and the Taycans geared motor helps some amount.
Tesla has definitely honed their motors to maximize the EPA range vs higher speeds in addition they aren’t de-rating like some other manufactures do.
He ran his standard test. Most other EVs in this test exceed the EPA range, most notably he recently tested the EV9 (a literal brick) in similar temperatures.
I hate Tesla and especially the Cybertruck as much as the next guy, but this was a highway test and that sounds like a completely normal result.
I own a Bolt EV which is rated for 259 miles of range. On the highway, that’s more like ~220. That sounds bad, but the other side of it is that I get ~300 miles of range during my normal work commutes through the city. This is just how EVs are, the estimated range is based on a mixed test. EVs are backwards compared to ICE, you’ll get ~20% less range than the EPA estimate driving highway speeds and ~20% more doing purely city driving.
It’s worth noting that he recently did the same test, with similar temps, in the EV9 (which is also super inefficient on the highway), and got over the EPA range. IIRC most of his range tests exceed EPA numbers.
And EVs and hybrids have regenerative braking so that does some recharging of the batteries. It’s not going to be stellar, but in stop and go traffic, it could definitely had some miles to range. There’s a lot less stopping on highways.
Regenerative braking isn’t magical. It doesn’t add range. It reduces range lost by stopping. Conservation of energy is still a thing.
If you were to drive any speed uninterrupted until the vehicle died, then attempted the same drive with stops every mile, the vehicle wouldn’t make it to the end.
This is true, but it’s neglecting one variable that does complicate the math slightly. There is greater air resistance at highway speeds. IIRC at 60mph 50% of your power is lost due to the air resistance.
So yes, if we lock the speed to a fixed value and compare them, then regenerative of course doesn’t increase the range more than not stopping at all. But that’s the nuanced gap in the discussion where misunderstanding is going to reside. That’s why you two are on different pages. Someone is assuming equal air resistance (speed), and someone is assuming a comparison of average city miles vs highway miles.
Neither is necessarily the ONLY way to look at it. It’s all relative.
Yes, but it’s unrelated to highway versus city performance in electric/hybrid cars.
Driving under highway speeds is almost always more efficient due to wind resistance. But for ICE cars without regenerative brakes the losses from braking and idling hurt enough to give the illusion of freeway efficiency.
And the reason actual highway speed versus the estimates on the sticker are often so far off with ICE cars is that the test is based on 55mph max highway speeds with an average speed of 48mph. Meanwhile the speed limits on all the freeways near me are between 75 and 85, making actual performance way, way worse.
The insideevs article reports 239 miles for a Model 3 Performance while clicking all the way through to the actual source of the testing “Whatcar” reported 324 miles for a M3 LR. What car indeed. I don’t believe these low numbers.
I’m sure Tesla has been overly aggressive with the range numbers. Especially people in colder climates must be getting far less than advertised. But these low-effort articles are not the best of sources.
Yeah ambient temperature dramatically affects the range of EVs. One time I took my Model 3 on a roadtrip and I had quite a bit of range left when I got to the hotel, but the next morning the temperature had plummeted and suddenly I had to make for the nearest charger instead of continuing on for a while. It’s just something we have to get used to with EVs I guess.
You notice some differences just from the air temperature going into the engine too. Especially in a turbocharged car.
Colder air means denser air. Denser air means more oxygen molecules in the same volume of air. More oxygen means the engine can put more fuel and produce a bit more power.
Depending on your driving style, i.e. If you have a heavy foot, this means a bit more power and fun, but you’re burning a bit more gas too.
Something else i dont see mentioned often either is that ICE cars generate heat as a waste byproduct of producing power, but electric cars dont produce usable heat, so if your in an area where its cold then using the AC heating will be additional battery usage coming off your driving range
Is this any different than EPA rated MPG listed on vehicles? Obviously their quoted range is an absolute best case scenario. Still fun to meme on the cyber truck though.
It’s not a best case scenario - it’s a precisely repeated series of accelerations, cruising with a specific amount of resistance applied to the wheels, and braking.
It won’t match any real world drive. In the real world there are other variables, traffic, wind, hills, speed limits, etc. It’s also intended to be a fairly typical highway drive, so in ideal conditions you will do better than the EPA range. Down hill, for example, the cybertruck can drive forever (unlike an ICE, which is so inefficient it uses energy even going down hill).
Modern ICE cars do not use fuel when coasting down hill. The computer completely shuts off the fuel injectors when coasting and the physical energy from the car rolling keeps the engine turning over.
I’ve found EPA MPG estimates to be fairly accurate. Unless I’m driving aggressively or there’s a lot of elevation change the highway average has been spot on the EPA number in every car I’ve driven enough to pay attention to the MPG.
Because a lot of other EVs that he’s run on the same test exceed the EPA numbers, some by a quite considerable margin. The Taycan for example is well-known for exceeding the EPA estimates by as much as 50%. He recently tested the EV9 (a brick) on the same test in similar temperatures, and it also exceeded the EPA numbers.
What was the EPA rated highway range? The 320 mile range is the EPA combined city/highway which you won’t hit doing entirely highway but you would beat doing entirely city.
Due to electric drivetrains having minimal fixed losses at low speed unlike internal combustion engines. Aerodynamic losses start becoming the largest factor for EVs at relatively low speeds (25-35 MPH) since other losses at so low. This shows up on tests as higher city efficiency and lower highway.
For an internal combustion engine you are burning a large amount of energy just to keep the engine running, so the slower the speed, the less distance traveled for the fixed amount of running losses and lower the MPG. It isn’t until higher speeds (55-65 MPH) that aerodynamic losses become the largest factor. This manifests as lower efficiency in the city tests and higher highway.
It’s also a factor that acceleration/deceleration in an ICE kills mileage. Highway tests maintain a constant speed. If you ran the same test at 35 mph, they would get much better mileage than at 55 (or 70)
That doesn’t explain why ICE vehicles are much better efficiency-wise than EV ones at higher speeds, just why EVs don’t do so well. Another post responding to me addresses it well.
Also, IIRC, Top Gear have always had a blase attitude towards their influence in the motor world. Given their reputation as petrol heads, and the fact that their review was also critical of the impact of EV’s on the environment, they’ve often fell back on the “we’re an entertainment show, you’re not supposed to take us as experts”, when many manufacturers have often said a negative review could cause significant harm in sales.
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Did the YouTuber run the same type of test that the EPA would run?
I feel like every car I’ve ever owned has had worse milage than what’s on the sticker. But maybe I have a lead foot.
The EPA highway test is 55mph or something around that. These real world tests are all 70mph+
The only way you do better or equal on a 70mph test is
Advertise a smaller range than you actually have
Gear the motor for high speed and have worse performance at lower speeds (EVs typically do better at low vs high, but you could make low even worse)
Have a multi gear motor like Porsche and I think some Audi. Then you don’t have to optimize the motor on 1 gear, but it substantially increases cost (but it’s a porsche) and complexity and repair costs.
The EPA just needs to make a 70mph test part of the test cycle and make them advertise that.
The gearing in the Taycan/E-Tron GT aren’t for efficiency, but for speed. Electric motors don’t really lose efficiency as they spin faster, but they do start to lose the ability to move the car faster against the exponentially increasing wind resistance. This isn’t an issue for most cars (they top out around 110mph), but for something like the Taycan it’s important (tops out around 155mph).
The 70mph situation is more that manufacturers de-rate their cars. Both the Taycan and the Lyriq (a SUV brick) are well-known for demolishing their EPA ranges in 70mph cruising tests. Even the EV9 (the brickiest brick) exceeded the EPA range in this same test.
Unrelated to my other reply - but I think it’d be interesting to see how much other manufactuers de-rate their cars, by having independent testers also run an EPA test just like they run real world tests.
I’d love to see them run reports saying XYZ car has an actual epa range of XYZ even though they report ABC
This is right from energy.gov
https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/articles/determining-electric-motor-load-and-efficiency
They also run more poorly below 50%.
To get a good city/highway range they would need to try and keep the motor above 50% for city, while also keeping it
underaround 75% for highway. How you move that gearing will impact range at higher speeds or lower speeds. Maybe it’s not as much as I think, but it definitely comes into play, and the Taycans geared motor helps some amount.Tesla has definitely honed their motors to maximize the EPA range vs higher speeds in addition they aren’t de-rating like some other manufactures do.
You probably do have a lead foot. I can usually best the sticker mpg especially with hybrids.
He ran his standard test. Most other EVs in this test exceed the EPA range, most notably he recently tested the EV9 (a literal brick) in similar temperatures.
Good to know. Sounds like this is just the same old shit Elon / Tesla just got slapped for by the feds.
I hate Tesla and especially the Cybertruck as much as the next guy, but this was a highway test and that sounds like a completely normal result.
I own a Bolt EV which is rated for 259 miles of range. On the highway, that’s more like ~220. That sounds bad, but the other side of it is that I get ~300 miles of range during my normal work commutes through the city. This is just how EVs are, the estimated range is based on a mixed test. EVs are backwards compared to ICE, you’ll get ~20% less range than the EPA estimate driving highway speeds and ~20% more doing purely city driving.
It’s worth noting that he recently did the same test, with similar temps, in the EV9 (which is also super inefficient on the highway), and got over the EPA range. IIRC most of his range tests exceed EPA numbers.
And EVs and hybrids have regenerative braking so that does some recharging of the batteries. It’s not going to be stellar, but in stop and go traffic, it could definitely had some miles to range. There’s a lot less stopping on highways.
Regenerative braking isn’t magical. It doesn’t add range. It reduces range lost by stopping. Conservation of energy is still a thing.
If you were to drive any speed uninterrupted until the vehicle died, then attempted the same drive with stops every mile, the vehicle wouldn’t make it to the end.
This is true, but it’s neglecting one variable that does complicate the math slightly. There is greater air resistance at highway speeds. IIRC at 60mph 50% of your power is lost due to the air resistance.
So yes, if we lock the speed to a fixed value and compare them, then regenerative of course doesn’t increase the range more than not stopping at all. But that’s the nuanced gap in the discussion where misunderstanding is going to reside. That’s why you two are on different pages. Someone is assuming equal air resistance (speed), and someone is assuming a comparison of average city miles vs highway miles.
Neither is necessarily the ONLY way to look at it. It’s all relative.
Semantics. Regenerative braking adds miles of range compared to those without.
Yes, but it’s unrelated to highway versus city performance in electric/hybrid cars.
Driving under highway speeds is almost always more efficient due to wind resistance. But for ICE cars without regenerative brakes the losses from braking and idling hurt enough to give the illusion of freeway efficiency.
And the reason actual highway speed versus the estimates on the sticker are often so far off with ICE cars is that the test is based on 55mph max highway speeds with an average speed of 48mph. Meanwhile the speed limits on all the freeways near me are between 75 and 85, making actual performance way, way worse.
I wrote this in another comment, but Tesla has been known for a long time to game EPA numbers. Here’s an article from 2020 talking about it: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-range-tested/
Several get below their EPA numbers, but several cars also get higher. Tesla models all get significantly below their claimed mileage.
The insideevs article reports 239 miles for a Model 3 Performance while clicking all the way through to the actual source of the testing “Whatcar” reported 324 miles for a M3 LR. What car indeed. I don’t believe these low numbers.
I’m sure Tesla has been overly aggressive with the range numbers. Especially people in colder climates must be getting far less than advertised. But these low-effort articles are not the best of sources.
Also this test was at 45⁰ C? That is not a normal temperature for most people.
It’s farenheit, Its winter/cold in America right now
Check the results of other cars in this test here: https://outofspecstudios.com/70-mph-range
Yeah ambient temperature dramatically affects the range of EVs. One time I took my Model 3 on a roadtrip and I had quite a bit of range left when I got to the hotel, but the next morning the temperature had plummeted and suddenly I had to make for the nearest charger instead of continuing on for a while. It’s just something we have to get used to with EVs I guess.
It’s the same with gas, you just didn’t notice it as much. Gas cars definitely get way lower mileage in the winter.
In mine the torque converter clutch won’t lock until the transmission is warm. That takes a while in winter.
You notice some differences just from the air temperature going into the engine too. Especially in a turbocharged car.
Colder air means denser air. Denser air means more oxygen molecules in the same volume of air. More oxygen means the engine can put more fuel and produce a bit more power.
Depending on your driving style, i.e. If you have a heavy foot, this means a bit more power and fun, but you’re burning a bit more gas too.
Denser air also means more drag. Few IC cars are optimised for aerodynamics
Something else i dont see mentioned often either is that ICE cars generate heat as a waste byproduct of producing power, but electric cars dont produce usable heat, so if your in an area where its cold then using the AC heating will be additional battery usage coming off your driving range
Is this any different than EPA rated MPG listed on vehicles? Obviously their quoted range is an absolute best case scenario. Still fun to meme on the cyber truck though.
Tesla has been known for a long time to game EPA numbers. Here’s an article from 2020 talking about it: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-range-tested/
It’s not a best case scenario - it’s a precisely repeated series of accelerations, cruising with a specific amount of resistance applied to the wheels, and braking.
It won’t match any real world drive. In the real world there are other variables, traffic, wind, hills, speed limits, etc. It’s also intended to be a fairly typical highway drive, so in ideal conditions you will do better than the EPA range. Down hill, for example, the cybertruck can drive forever (unlike an ICE, which is so inefficient it uses energy even going down hill).
Modern ICE cars do not use fuel when coasting down hill. The computer completely shuts off the fuel injectors when coasting and the physical energy from the car rolling keeps the engine turning over.
I’ve found EPA MPG estimates to be fairly accurate. Unless I’m driving aggressively or there’s a lot of elevation change the highway average has been spot on the EPA number in every car I’ve driven enough to pay attention to the MPG.
Because a lot of other EVs that he’s run on the same test exceed the EPA numbers, some by a quite considerable margin. The Taycan for example is well-known for exceeding the EPA estimates by as much as 50%. He recently tested the EV9 (a brick) on the same test in similar temperatures, and it also exceeded the EPA numbers.
deleted by creator
Who cares what some doofus YouTuber thinks?
What was the EPA rated highway range? The 320 mile range is the EPA combined city/highway which you won’t hit doing entirely highway but you would beat doing entirely city.
Why is the efficiency lower on highways?
Due to electric drivetrains having minimal fixed losses at low speed unlike internal combustion engines. Aerodynamic losses start becoming the largest factor for EVs at relatively low speeds (25-35 MPH) since other losses at so low. This shows up on tests as higher city efficiency and lower highway.
For an internal combustion engine you are burning a large amount of energy just to keep the engine running, so the slower the speed, the less distance traveled for the fixed amount of running losses and lower the MPG. It isn’t until higher speeds (55-65 MPH) that aerodynamic losses become the largest factor. This manifests as lower efficiency in the city tests and higher highway.
That makes sense, thanks.
It’s also a factor that acceleration/deceleration in an ICE kills mileage. Highway tests maintain a constant speed. If you ran the same test at 35 mph, they would get much better mileage than at 55 (or 70)
Also regenerative breaking is not useful when you’re maintaining constant speed on the highway, but a huge leg-up in the city
There’s more air resistance at higher speeds.
That doesn’t explain why ICE vehicles are much better efficiency-wise than EV ones at higher speeds, just why EVs don’t do so well. Another post responding to me addresses it well.
Do you mean that ICE is more efficient than EV at higher speeds, or that ICE scales better than EV?
ICE vehicles have better MPG at higher speeds, EVs at lower speeds.
Most EVs he’s tested hit or exceed the EPA range on this test. Even bricks like the EV9 exceed their EPA range in similar temps.
People who do business with tesla deserve what they get.
Also, the Murdochs are known to fan out the EV bullshit that is being sold these days via their channels.
It’s only a matter of time before driving an EV is considered woke.
Already there, a conservative I know said to me “it’s only matter of time until they make us all drive EVs”
I remember when top gear tested a Tesla and found the range they quoted to be wildly over estimates. Tesla lost the lawsuit.
That article’s from 2012, before Elon Musk popularity took off, and yet you can already get a foreshadowing sense of Musk off the article:
Top Gear were completely phony though, they purposefully ran the battery flat before the demo. This is known. Elons a douche but so is Clarkson.
Also, IIRC, Top Gear have always had a blase attitude towards their influence in the motor world. Given their reputation as petrol heads, and the fact that their review was also critical of the impact of EV’s on the environment, they’ve often fell back on the “we’re an entertainment show, you’re not supposed to take us as experts”, when many manufacturers have often said a negative review could cause significant harm in sales.